Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

Neither will we! I will leave that mystery for science

3:59 PM

Whatever the reason, I doubt it is magical

Dream | Shadow System

Whatever the reason, I doubt it is magical

Haha definitely not

We decided that once we get a stable job aside from freelancing, we'll leave all non-nessecary purchases up to collective vote

2:07 AM

Like clothing, accessories, Miscellaneous items for the house.

can someone like depthly explain to me how to create and communicate with tulpas

I recommend checking out a guide in #what-is-a-tulpa for some beginner info.

oh ty

https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/431895651266330644/1139842350449963009 I'm sorry for the ghost ping in #tulpa-questions @leviine, I realized too late a beginner asked questions and I want to give them the spotlight Ethically I don't like the idea. In practice though, hmm... I honestly doubt the free will a headmate is given if they're supposed to be your romantic partner no questions asked. I would remind them about the expectation headmates are people, but if they adamantly turn that down then that's a sign I want to see and I'll let them be. In others words, I hope to discourage them from making a fully separate headmate As for romantic fulfillment- I feel like it's one thing to fall in love with your headmate, it's another thing to hope you can cure your need for a romantic partner via creation. My gut feeling is that probably will work as well as you hoping headmates can replace out-of-head friends

The ethics of making a tulpa for romantic fulfilment... I think romantic fulfilment might not be possible for many people without a relationship outside of the system. I don't think it's unethical to create a tulpa with the goal of romance. My opinion is based on the idea that, for them to be a tulpa, they would necessarily have the ability to make their own choice about the relationship. So, I don't worry about tulpas being 'trapped' in relationships. If there's some distress going on, I think it's better not to try to address that in terms of tulpamancy, where problems and solutions can so easily be hidden away behind layers of system narrative. If there isn't choice involved, then I'd say that's not a tulpa, and is instead fantasising (which I also don't think is unethical). My own view of in-system romantic relationships is that they are distinct from romatic relationships with external people. There are some obvious similarities between both types of relationships, but there are also elements that are completely unique to each type. I don't see either as a replacement for the other.

I agree, well said Cerys

I can't imagine needing a romantic relationship Really glad I'm not allosexual lol

don’t know what that is

A long kiss goodnight

I agree, well said Cerys

Thank you, I think your description of your gut feeling summarises it very well.

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

don’t know what that is

it means non-asexual

6:10 PM

altho to be fair I think some people would contest that romance can occur without sexuality

6:11 PM

I mean, romance has a lot of different meaning for different people after all

I didn't feel like adding the word alloromantic

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

don’t know what that is

Flandre: allosexual means sexual (edited)

12:59 AM

they gave us a new word

12:59 AM

12:59 AM

*two new words

Zed...

guh

Reisen

Click to see attachment 🖼️

looks like they added two new words for the thing that already has a word? (edited)

10:06 AM

i can't keep up with everyone's headcanons

10:06 AM

can we come to a consensus and stick to it please

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

can we come to a consensus and stick to it please

If that were possible we wouldn't have multiple definitions for switching

it is possible, there is just will to do the opposite

If there was one definition of switching, what would it be?

i personally don't like definitions when it comes to plurality, they are too limiting it might not feel like much of a difference to people, but instead of talking about about definitions, imo it's more valuable to explore the question "what the experience of switching is like?" with this approach, everyone will have their own answer, and it welcomes different answers, and it's something that helps beginners more than a cold definition i'm not sure what the role of definition is for, beside people arguing if something is X or not X, or acting as if things are objectively figured out the experience is fluid and shaped by how you understand it, and definitions shape your understanding (edited)

The issue I see is when beginners expect one definition or they are struggling because they want a different experience that they heard is plausible I do think this is clarified by people saying "there are multiple definitions of switching" because it's saying that there are multiple understandings for what it means (I interchange definition with understanding) (edited)

how much better than “there are multiple definitions of switching” does “people experience switching in different ways”?

1:28 PM

iirc i saw you saying the latter a few times

1:28 PM

i might be misremembering though

I interchange them, and I sometimes put them together 'There are multiple definitions of switching because switching can be referring to multiple experiences' There will be people who say "switching is xyz" strictly based on their experience. Unfortunately, that is a definition. I see it as inevitable someone will find two different understands of what switching is and be told their version is correct. I think the use of "definitions" is not inappropriate. There's also the problem of me having to define switching in my switching guide. I will still define it, but my definition is really general: Switching usually refers to the experience of trading places with or becoming your headmate. And I do mean usually because golly gee wizz I have changed this definition multiple times already

1:35 PM

The more simple, crude definition of switching that would be universal to my knowledge is 'The swapping of personalities and the consequential experience of such' Honestly... I may use that

1:36 PM

No wait, that doesn't work with "becoming" ugh

i think all you are saying is just arguments for my point that definitions are not useful

1:38 PM

The thing you said here: “Switching usually refers to the experience of trading places with or becoming your headmate” sounds to me like a tldr of a chapter where you explain experiences pf switching

Exactly. That's what a huge chunk of the guide is for- describing the switching experiences people report (edited)

1:39 PM

But I do need to give the reader some idea of what I'm talking about

1:41 PM

I probably need something more simplified because "swapping" and "becoming" are two interpretations of the same experience. Switching is a system changing their main personality.

1:41 PM

There we go

yeah but then someone gets offended because their headmates are not “personalities”

I'll explain after the definition that this definition is super general and applies to systems that would see it more generally

1:43 PM

Not everyone sees their headmates as individuals

1:43 PM

Those guys can also switch

ok but with that definition a question “hey Ranger, what is your favourite personality to be?” is appropriate

1:47 PM

it probably would be better to define what fronting is, and then say that switching is just changing who is fronting

I would tell them I prefer to be switched in and confuse the hell out of them

I was thinking this in the back of my head, but you helped me realize this- it's worth stating that this definition is useful fir vaguely understanding what is switching, but not useful when asking someone about their switching

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

it probably would be better to define what fronting is, and then say that switching is just changing who is fronting

Fronting I believe has a different definition- controlling the body. It's different from switching because switching isn't just about controlling the body

i meant that if you define fronting, then you can use the definition of fronting in the definition of switching to make it easier

1:50 PM

front: the experience of being in control of the body and reception of the senses yarayarayara switch: changing which headmate is at the front

But as the guide writer I can't just write yarayarayara if I can avoid it :P

lol

We're just moving the problem to defining fronting

yeah but switching ultimately is about changing who fronts

1:53 PM

build the definition on top of the experience of the reader

1:53 PM

everyone knows what fronting is like

1:53 PM

they've been fronting their whole life!

Yesn't? Gray is switched-in right now but he's not fronting

1:54 PM

I am fronting

1:54 PM

But I'm doing so via possession

again you gave an argument for why definitions are not helpful

people dont know where "fronting" starts and ends if they have never changed who is in the front

So much so if they believe they become their headmates when they switch!

one thing i noticed is how much easier it is for people to get the experience of having a tulpa when you build on top of something they already experienced

1:58 PM

for example, when i mention the experience of having an argument with someone, and then after a few hours having coming up with better argument that could be used in the conversation, and then replaying/simulating the conversation with that person, everyone gets it

1:59 PM

once someone taps into having that experience, you can talk about how in situation like this the person in your head can have a bit of an autonomy from you because it just plays out automatically, and say that tulpamancy is something like that, but goes much further

1:59 PM

similarly, you can say what fronting is like

1:59 PM

even if someone doesn't have a contrast that aapeli says, they will understand what fronting is if you jsut talk about the experience

yeah i was thinking more like a complete understanding of the experience, which tbf you cant have about anything unless you do it yourself

2:00 PM

when you do it the words others described it makes complete sense but it might be from a perspective that is different than what you expected

but then when you have a tulpa, you also know what not fronting is like

Switching is tricky because it's a new experience they didn't have before. While I can explain a headmate's experience of switching in can be how they have existed their whole life, the mindset component of the host and headmate trading roles is new. And with wonderland switching its even worse because being switched-out is ~~a brand new experience~~ *Actually wait, no it's not if you're already parallel processing. It's complicated (edited)

understanding what fronting,not fronting and switching is is about exploring the experience of the host and of the tulpa (edited)

Yes. I do have to start somewhere though

2:04 PM

I got to give the basic idea so I can explain the more complicated stuff in more detail

i don't think it's more complicated stuff, it's just more human stuff

2:04 PM

i think if you start with a short definition it can be confusing for the person

2:05 PM

(all i'm saying is in the context of material made for beginners of course)

I think a mean textwall as a definition would be worse: Switching describes multiple general experiences, and likely more than what I list here. Switching is generally interpreted as trading places with your headmate or becoming your headmate. From there, the most common experiences include a change in who thinks, a change in who is connected to the body, and the swapping of consciousness, pseudo or otherwise. In addition, switching can also encompass multiple headmates being switched-in at the same time, different headmates having different switching experiences within the same system, or a mix of both. Finally, the act of switching itself can be triggered by a ritual as effortless as the desire to switch and as complicated as a detailed step-by-step ritual.

Metaphor is a powerful tool when you explain something that the person hasn't experienced before. Imagine you're sitting in the driver's seat of a car, hands on the steering wheel, and feet hovering over the pedals. You've been driving for years, and you're intimately familiar with the way the car responds to your every touch. The vibrations of the engine, the resistance of the brakes, and the subtle tug of the wheel as you turn – it's all a part of your muscle memory. But then, one day, you decide to teach a close friend, Alex, how to drive. As you sit in the driver's seat, Alex watches closely, absorbing all the details. You start explaining the basics – how to adjust the mirrors, how to start the engine, and how to control the vehicle. Alex listens intently, asking questions along the way. After some time, you decide to switch seats. You slide into the passenger seat, and Alex takes your place behind the wheel. Now, it's Alex's hands gripping the steering wheel, and their foot gently pressing on the gas pedal. You're still there, offering guidance and reassurance, but the control has shifted. From Alex's perspective, this is a mixture of excitement and nervousness. They can feel the weight of responsibility in their grip on the wheel, the pressure of making split-second decisions, and the exhilaration of propelling the car forward. As they look through the windshield, the road ahead seems both familiar and new, and they rely on your voice – your wisdom – to navigate this uncharted territory.

2:32 PM

For you, sitting in the passenger seat, the experience is a blend of trust and observation. You watch as Alex translates your guidance into actions – the gentle turns of the wheel, the timing of the signals, and the rhythm of acceleration and braking. You can still feel the subtle shifts of the car beneath you, as if your senses are extended into Alex's hands and feet. Yet, you've relinquished control, allowing Alex to make decisions that directly affect your shared journey. In the realm of tulpamancy, fronting mirrors this dynamic. When a tulpa fronts, it's like they step into the driver's seat of the body. You, as the host, become the observer, watching as your tulpa interacts with the external world through the physical senses. Your tulpa's consciousness guides the body's actions, just as Alex's consciousness guides the car. Do you see how this intricate interplay of roles and perspectives parallels the experience of fronting in tulpamancy? It's a dance between two consciousnesses, a partnership of shared control and shared experience, as you both traverse the landscape of reality together.

2:34 PM

----- I'm interested to hear why you think defining what switching is is important?

TiCtAc(✧×✧)

For you, sitting in the passenger seat, the experience is a blend of trust and observation. You watch as Alex translates your guidance into actions – the gentle turns of the wheel, the timing of the signals, and the rhythm of acceleration and braking. You can still feel the subtle shifts of the car beneath you, as if your senses are extended into Alex's hands and feet. Yet, you've relinquished control, allowing Alex to make decisions that directly affect your shared journey. In the realm of tulpamancy, fronting mirrors this dynamic. When a tulpa fronts, it's like they step into the driver's seat of the body. You, as the host, become the observer, watching as your tulpa interacts with the external world through the physical senses. Your tulpa's consciousness guides the body's actions, just as Alex's consciousness guides the car. Do you see how this intricate interplay of roles and perspectives parallels the experience of fronting in tulpamancy? It's a dance between two consciousnesses, a partnership of shared control and shared experience, as you both traverse the landscape of reality together.

Very nice I think that's the key issue- it's easier to use a metaphor when the experience is a bit more specific. With such a general definition I can't base a metaphor off my switching style and say that applies to all switching

TiCtAc(✧×✧)

----- I'm interested to hear why you think defining what switching is is important?

If a beginner doesn't have a basic general idea to work with, I'm assuming they're going to be confused and frustrated

3:17 PM

I want to give them something really general to start off with so when I give the higher level experiences and details, they're not completely lost

3:19 PM

However, I do think it needs to be clear it's super generalized and is only there to help grasp the concept, not as something that really applies to any one system's experience. "Changing personalities" is basically what everyone is doing on a very general level

3:20 PM

It's like how I need to say these animals are all "cats" even though one is a domestic shorthair, one is a lion, another a tiger, another a puma, etc.

cat.

The driving metaphor never jived with me, it feels mislieading and suggests separate streams of consciousness for headmates

i dont know how a metaphor of growing an extra pair of arms that are on the steering wheel would work

4:08 PM

you relax your arms and let the other pair drive but you can always drive yourself whenever you want again

4:08 PM

or you can both steer at once

vishnu tulpa

and the arms are glued to the wheel and you just forget about the other pair of hands when they are relaxed (edited)

I mean... it's a metaphor, not a definition!!! a metaphor doesn't say "fronting is this", a metaphor says "fronting is like this" the whole point of using a metaphor constructed using situations that the audience is familiar with is so that the reader can be guided along a hypothetical, imagined experience ("Imagine you're sitting in the driver's seat of a car...") the strength of metaphor versus definition is that the reader is guided to an experience, and the reader is like "Oh, fronting is like this thing I already know about, OK!"... and now communication is established, the audience is 'on the same page' as the writer, and other things the writer will write about will probably make more sense since the reader now understands the context metaphor is particularly strong for explaining tulpamancy because tulpamancy is extraordinarily experience-based (which is also why definitions that are useful for newbies are such a struggle to construct!!!) if you look at a metaphor and take it literally, treat it as a definition rather that following along with the imagined situation the metaphor tries to paint, then a metaphor looks like an inaccurate and/or overly-wordy definition. The way to engage with a metaphor is to treat it in a similar way to a thought experiment

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

one thing i noticed is how much easier it is for people to get the experience of having a tulpa when you build on top of something they already experienced

for me, this is the key thing when it comes to explaining anything experiential to someone else... this is the first thing to do so that there is some certainty about the sort of experience that is being described